Max Fawcett

Hi there, and welcome to Maxed Out. My name is Max Fawcett. I'm the lead columnist for Canada's National Observer, and someone who is already counting down the days to the start of spring training. Maxed Out is made possible by listeners like you. We're asking for your support to keep the word going. If you've supported the podcast with a donation already, my personal thanks. If you haven't yet, please donate what you're able. Whether it's $5 or $10, or a one time contribution or a monthly gift. Every little bit helps us keep producing more episodes, please donate at www.nationalobserver.com, Normally, this podcast is about having constructive conversations about public policy issues with people I might or do disagree with. I want to step outside my silos and I want to encourage other people to step outside of theirs. But today I'm doing something a little different. My guest today is Linda Solomon Wood. She's the publisher and founder of Canada's National Observer and the CEO of the Observer Media Group. Now when the person who signs your paychecks asks you if they can be on your podcast, it's usually a good idea to say yes, that's doubly true when they're from Tennessee like Linda and have one of those charming accents that Canadians just seem incapable of producing. But Linda is a lot more than my boss. She's an entrepreneur who's built one of Canada's fastest-growing media companies and done it at a time when the media landscape has been shrinking and social media rage farmers have been taking over our public conversations. And when you do the investigative journalism and news that the Observer specialises in, it's much tougher sledding. That's one of the reasons I wanted to have Linda on the podcast to discuss the media landscape in 2023. For better and for worse, what's changing? What excites her? And how do we as journalists do a better job of reaching our audience and giving them the information they need? I'm also interested in the evolution of the Observer over the years since she created it first as the Vancouver Observer and then as the National Observer in 2015. Now, if you told me back then, when I was working as the editor of Alberta Oil Magazine, that I'd one day be the lead columnist at Canada's National Observer, I never would have believed it. That's partially because my politics and those of the Observer were just too far apart. I am, as many of you know, a supporter of the trans mountain pipeline, something that still irritates plenty of people in my hometown of Vancouver. And while TMX has faded into the background of late it was or it seemed to me back then, the animating force behind the Observer's coverage a decade or so ago. I think it's fair to say that I've changed a bit since then. But so as the Observer, and the journalism landscape that we both share, and while I wouldn't have been able to imagine it back, then I'm proud to be on the same team as Linda, and I'm looking forward to our conversation today. Linda Solomon Wood, welcome to Maxed Out.

Linda Solomon Wood

Thanks, Max, what an amazing introduction. Thank you.

Max Fawcett

So we're nearly a decade into the National Observer's existence, and almost 15 since you founded the Vancouver Observer. Is journalism in a better or worse place now than it was then?

Linda Solomon Wood

Whoa, that is a great question. I think since I've started this journey of building media in Canada, the journalism industry has just been in a lot of turmoil. And it looked really bad back then. Newspapers are slashing budgets. Google and Facebook are taking over all the ad revenue. And, it's really shocking how many journalism jobs were just being lost and how small newsrooms are getting. You know, but I think things have reconfigured a lot since then. I don't think it's become easier for journalism. There's like a wellspring of new journalism enterprises that have excellent journalism all over North America and the world. And, you know, attention, more than ever, on collaborating, rather than competing on just doing whatever we can do to continue to do what we really care about, as you know, I think, well, the kind of journalism that I'm committed to, which is public service journalism,

Max Fawcett

Why did you feel the need to pivot from what was a more local-focused journalism operation, very focused on Vancouver in the Lower Mainland and BC to a national platform in 2015?

Linda Solomon Wood

You gave a really good description coming into this Max of those years when Vancouver Observer was covering a very contentious issue. And, you know, it's all about really getting in there and focusing on what citizens of British Columbia primarily were reacting to these pipeline projects. As a journalist myself, what I started to realise about that story, well, it took me to Fort McMurray, where I travelled with a photographer named Mandy Wright. And spending time up there, and starting to really cover the oil sands. And, you know, as I started interviewing more people who really were involved in looking at the expansion of the oil sands, what kept coming up was the words climate change. And the oil sands are like the fuse of the carbon bomb, and all this kind of very emotional language around our oil exploration. And you know, what was happening around the world and to the world, that made me see that. You know, people were saying to me at the time, and I didn't really want to believe them about the Vancouver Observer, once you cross the Rocky Mountains, nobody's gonna read a publication with the word, you know, the name "Vancouver" in it. To really build a national audience around your work, it's got to be a national publication.

Max Fawcett

And look at you now. During the early days of the National Observer, I would have been called a critic, maybe even an enemy. I disagreed with the Observer's approach to climate change, to pipelines to fossil fuels to a lot of things, certainly not in the way that some conservatives did and do now, but, you know, I think there was there was a gap. Today, I think the Observers is still aggressive in its reporting. It's still very laser-focused on climate. But I would argue that it's more nuanced. Is that a fair assessment?

Linda Solomon Wood

Yeah, because as I got deeper and deeper into it, I started to understand how nuanced the issue was for Canadians. And in Canada, also, as the story really led me to start thinking a lot more about climate change. Well, the big change was that there was a national election and the government changed. We entered a new phase where this government claimed to be completely committed to climate action. And it was very exciting. And I thought it was really important to tell that story and also to be more of a publication that was focusing on innovation at the intersection of finance, the environment, climate change, culture, politics. I just started to see ourselves as a mainstream publication. And that's what I wanted to do, pull people together rather than push them apart.

Max Fawcett

I think that's what attracted me to the Observer in recent years is that mainstream aspect and I think also the purpose of kind of expanding how the mainstream thinks about climate issues. It's, you know, not studying climate issues like a marginal fringe thing, but treating them like something that is very much at the heart of what Canadians care about. And we've seen poll after poll, frankly, election after election, show that climate change is not a fringe issue. It is right at the middle. How does an online publication that focuses on climate change and the fossil fuel industry find an audience among the big media outlets right now in Canada?

Linda Solomon Wood

We were really lucky to start when we did, which was 2015, as you said, Max. And although now everybody's covering climate change, back then, they weren't, and it also still was regarded as kind of a fringe issue. With the Trudeau Government embracing it, it was becoming more of a mainstream issue. But I looked at that data to about what Canadians care about and I saw that they really cared about the environment and climate. When we went out to try and raise money for projects, if they were about the environment or climate change, we could raise enough money to do a project over a year from our audience. That was eye-opening. And that was, you know, kind of mind blowing. If you're talking about an issue that people care about, that is not being covered and it wasn't back then, that's where the audience is. And that's also an audience that will help you, you know, do the work.

Max Fawcett

I think journalists have a higher opinion of journalism than most of the public, we value it, I think, because we understand it. And we see the role that, you know, it's sort of like a structural engineer who understands the value of something in a building that keeps it sturdy and stable, can't see it outside. And most of the public doesn't even know it's there. So they don't appreciate it. But a structural engineer goes no, no, that that joist or that beam is just crucial to the whole house standing up. And I think journalism is the same way and journalists can see it. The rest of the public, if you try to get them excited about journalism, it's a bit of a tough sell.

Linda Solomon Wood

Going back to how lucky we were that we got started when we did when there weren't a lot of people in the field. And I think, you know, it was possible to still build an audience with Facebook and Twitter and, you know, so we've built a very solid loyal audience that is super engaged in this topic. I would say, you know, every climate nerd in Canada subscribes to The National Observer, professors, academics, folks that are, you know, immersed in the issue, policymakers, it's very exciting to look at our subscriber list. And if you're a subscriber listening today, I just want to tell you how impressed I always am with the quality of people, and just, you know, the level of education and understanding of the issues.

Max Fawcett

The Observer has a soft paywall, I will periodically get people on Twitter, complaining that they can't access their some story. And so my response is always the same. Like if you want good journalism, you got to pay for it, you know. What are some of the ways or options for building a paying and sporting audience?

Linda Solomon Wood

This is one of the puzzles that's engaged me for years now. You know, it's still a challenging puzzle. And I haven't put all the pieces together yet, and I don't think anybody has, except, you know, the big companies like the New York Times, The Washington Post, that just have such a consolidated audience. It's such a big audience. For those of us that are smaller, it's a constant challenge. I think that we build audience and we build subscribers, person by person, through not only journalism that people start to rely on, but also through a really engaged conversation with our audience. And that conversation builds a community that starts to really feel involved in the coverage, which they absolutely should, because at the National Observer, we would not be able to do what we do without our, you know, engaged audience that not only pays to subscribe, but then amazingly, these are the same people who come forward in crowdfunding campaigns. They are funding a lot of amazing journalism. And, you know, we try to as much as we can, to come back to people and tell them, 'this is what you've been able to do'. And I think you start to create a circle of satisfaction. That's because I see what we're creating, I see the power of it, I see the impact it has, I see the changes. We've been able to at least be a part of making over all these years. And I see the conversation we've been able to convene, and I think our most engaged subscribers, they see that too. And I think they take a lot of gratification from it, and they absolutely should.

Max Fawcett

Now one of the more common refrains that I hear from our critics, and certainly from my critics is that we're government funded. And therefore we're, you know, a government mouthpiece carrying water for Trudeau, and he gives us our talking points, and we would get them out there. And I always sort of enjoy pointing out to folks like this that Post Media is government funded on the same level. So can you talk a little bit about how much exactly government funding the Observer gets, and can you also tell people whether or not any of that funding goes to pay for me because I hear that a lot and it's kind of irritating.

Linda Solomon Wood

Hello, critics. Hello, trolls, Hello, fans, people who secretly really love what Max does, but choose to show that by endlessly criticising him. Max is not funded by the federal government. I can tell you, our funding from the federal government comes through the local journalism initiative, it funds specific positions, you can see it on our website. And these positions, these reporters, are required to produce a daily news story. There's 250 publications in Canada that benefit from it, then the stories go to the Canadian Press where they're uploaded to a portal and they're available to every news outlet in Canada. If anything verges on opinion, it's not going to get funded again. So anyway, Max Fawcett is not funded by the federal government.

Max Fawcett

I'm gonna clip that out and put it on Twitter.

Linda Solomon Wood

Like all of our reporters that are not, you know, in that programme, are funded by readers. They're funded by readers and to some, you know, through philanthropy and through subscriptions. So there you go.

Max Fawcett

Yeah, there we go. Exactly. I mean, not that it's gonna change a single mind. But it's good to get it on the record. You know, one of the things I find funny about this conversation is that, you know, there are charities in this country that do right wing political operations, I shall not name them, but everyone knows who they are. And they in their proxies often complain about government funding of the media. Well, they're government funded, because if you're a charity, you're effectively taking government funds in the form of the tax relief that your charitable status offers. It's a giant piece of hypocrisy, but I think like a lot of issues the federal government has done a really poor job of communicating the value of this programme. I think that will be the legacy of this Trudeau Government is good policy, terrible communications.

Linda Solomon Wood

I see that with so many government Max.

Max Fawcett

His communications is an afterthought. It's not at the table strategically, but it should be. But you know, Canada is probably one of the hardest countries in the world to support journalism at the local levels simply because we don't have population economies of scale. It's not like the United States. It's not like the Netherlands or Western Europe, where you have markets that are contained because of language barriers, you know, we're right next to this giant information producing behemoth. And it's really hard for media to kind of stand on its own, just like, it's always been hard for our culture industries to stand on their own. And so I understand why people are critical of government funding of the media, because they want it to go away. They don't want voices,like the Observer out there. They don't want voices that are critical of large industry or power centres that are not able to rely on shadowy funding from goodness knows where, you know, they want that government funding to go away. But I think it's incumbent upon every organisation that receives it, including Post Media, to explain to their readers the value that it offers, the value that it creates.

Linda Solomon Wood

I really ask people to consider who are the good funders of journalism in the world? Like, who do you want to fund the media? You know, do you want a billionaire to own a newspaper? Is that a better model? Is it a better model for a hedge fund in the United States to own the newspaper? Is it better for a couple of fund managers from Toronto to own it? I would like National Observer to become 100% reader funded. That's my big dream.

Max Fawcett

Yeah, I agree. I think people maybe got a little bit too comfortable with, you know, Jeff Bezos owning the Washington Post, because he was, and has been, I think, a model billionaire. And as much as that's even a a thing he's kept his hands off of. But then you look at the guys who bought Torstar, and then had this, you know, bizarre family feud over it. And Elon Musk and Twitter when Twitter is basically, you know, journalism adjacent and look at what he's doing to that. You really can't count on billionaires or multimillionaires to save your bacon on this stuff. Speaking of Elon, I think we should have a conversation about the role that social media has played in growing an audience. Obviously, Facebook, and more recently, Twitter has really helped get the Observer's news and stories to people out there. I think that also obviously comes with some downsides. What is your thinking about the role of social media going forward, and in growing the audience?

Linda Solomon Wood

The times they are a changing, and we've just been through an amazing era for, you know, a small company to grow in what I mean by that is, you know, we've been through an era where Facebook, particularly Facebook, was so open. And you know, a news story, a big news story, you could get hundreds and thousands of shares on a story, you know, just because it was good. We grew a lot, thanks to Facebook. That's not possible anymore. Their reaction to all the pressures they've been under to get fake news off the platform has caused them to really sideline news on Facebook. You know, I think Twitter's great, but I think mainly people use it to scan headlines. I'm looking now for like, where's the next cutting edge? Where do we go now?

Max Fawcett

It seems like there's a lot of attempts to recreate Twitter, or some version of Twitter. And it seems to me, it's more likely that the next thing will be something fundamentally different. Yeah. What do you think about Tiktok? I know that, you know, certainly there's been pressure I know of journalists who have sort of been told by their bosses that, you know, you got to do Tiktok videos now. That's where the young people are, and some of them do really well there. But, you know, as an old person or as an older person, I'm a little sceptical of that, but what do you think about that platform?

Linda Solomon Wood

I don't understand Tiktok well enough yet. I do read a lot about, you know, the Chinese government control. That concerns me. We have a staff of about 20 people at the National Observer. We're small. So, we can't do all of those things. So I'm not very drawn to do TikTok. I am really more and more drawn to move away from social media.

Max Fawcett

Yeah, I mean, I'm in the same boat. The Chinese government stuff with Tiktok, it's disqualifying for me. And I've seen how people consume it. And people talk about Twitter being addictive, but Tiktok feels like it is designed to be a drug releasing mechanism that keeps people sort of just in a kind of stupor, watching content on there. So I think maybe you're right that, you know, the future of journalism is not necessarily less engagement, but deeper engagement. We don't need to have many tens of thousands of clicks that don't do anything other than click. We need readers who are engaged in the publication that they support.

Linda Solomon Wood

You know, there's advice as a business person and there's advice as a journalist. Once you've decided what it is you really know you care about, do it. And don't listen to all the people who are going to tell you that you it can't be done and you can't do it. My journalism advice is to really realise that good journalism hasn't changed very much over the years, which is telling a really good story with facts and focusing on the most significant work you could possibly do.

Max Fawcett

That's good advice. Do you have any last words for the listeners before we go here, Linda?

Linda Solomon Wood

Yeah, I do. Over the last year, we raised around $350,000 in two crowdfunding campaigns. And that came all pretty much from subscribers, people who are already paying to subscribe. So the first thing I want to say is just thank you to all of you who did that, it meant so much. Write me anytime if you want to know what we're doing with those funds, or you want more updates than what we're giving, we're going to really try to let you know how significant this funding has been. But I hope you see that every day in our parishes,

Max Fawcett

You know that crowdfunding happened at a time when you know, people were having to pay more on their mortgages, on their groceries on just about everything. And they still found a way to dig deep and support what we do here and I think that can't be thanked or acknowledged enough.

Linda Solomon Wood

Thank you, Max. I hope we can I can share more of my excitement about the team with you over the next year. And just say, we've got a lot of hard issues in front of us societally. And we have a role to play as journalists. We are all really passionate about playing that role in the best way we can. And again, I just want to thank all of you who've helped make that possible.

Max Fawcett

Excellent.

Linda Solomon Wood

Thank you, Max, for this great conversation.

Max Fawcett

I enjoyed it. All right. That's it for today. Just a reminder that we need your help to continue our podcasts. Every donation helps and please rate us a five on Apple Podcasts and tell your friends and family. We want everyone to find. Maxed Out is produced by Canada's National Observer. Our managing producer for podcasts is Sandra Bartlett. It's associate producer is Zahra Khozema. The executive editor of Canada's National Observer is Karyn Pugliese. Our publisher is Linda Solomon Woods. I'm Max Fawcett and next week, it's Hot Politics with David McKie. See you in two weeks.